I had so much fun interviewing Dr. Ken Berry on the Keto Friendly Recipes Facebook page the other day! We both have deep compassion for helping others especially when it comes to learning about the Ketogenic Diet way of life.
Dr. Berry and I met a couple of years ago at a keto conference that was hosted here in Austin Texas where I live. He was attending with his lovely wife Niesha, who is also a nurse who helps people with keto!
Conferences can get really busy really fast and there’s not always a way to learn more about someone you just met. I really wanted to chat with Dr. Berry about Keto and learn more about him. He wrote a book titled Lies My Doctor Told Me that was just picked up by Victory Belt Publishing! That’s pretty exciting! I’m always happy to share any publicity that can shed light on the Keto way of life so more people can learn. Keto has changed my life and I can’t help but share any bit of information that can change your life too!
Are you interested in starting keto? If so, read this: Simple Way to Start the Ketogenic Diet
Did you know that I share my weekly keto meal plans every week? You can get them via email by adding your email to my personal list. (I won’t ever spam you. I hate spam!) Add your email here to start receiving these free meal plans each week: www.switchtoketo.com . After you add your email to the list, you will receive an email asking you to confirm. Be sure to confirm the email add or else it won’t add you to the list.
I can also offer you a keto cookbook to help you on your journey! Right now, the Keto Friendly Recipes: Easy Keto for Busy People Cookbook is available for preorder! It releases on May 7th but you will want to purchase before that date to take advantage of some amazing preorder bonuses! I am giving away my How to Start Keto video course and a 3 month Keto Meal plan book printable too! We have a ton of other freebies but these are extremely valuable in helping you start your journey! Order the Keto Friendly Recipes cookbook here! You will love it!
If you need even more support on your Low Carb or Keto Journey, I welcome you to join the Low Carb Inspirations (plus Keto Friendly Recipes) Facebook group! It’s a place where we all hang out to support one another on our journey. All the admins and moderators work very hard to keep this the most positive space on the internet. It’s a tough job too.
Here’s the full interview with Dr. Ken Berry. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!
I’ve transcribed the whole interview so you can choose to watch the video replay or you can read the whole interview.
Jennifer: Hey guys! Guess what! We have a special guest tonight. If you’re in the low carb inspirations group, don’t say who it is. Because I didn’t announce it yet. Hold on, let me see something.
Jennifer: How’s everybody doing tonight? Hey Chris! How’s it going? Hold on, bear with me. Let me see. That’s my husband in the background. Can you hear all that noise?
Jennifer: Oh, I can’t see comments. Let’s see here.
Jennifer: Okay! What’s everybody making for dinner? Hey, Karen. So we have a special guest this evening that’s going to jump on with us here in a bit. I guess I’m supposed to be able to, oh, thanks hun. Hey, come say hi. My husband just brought me water. Hi!
Jennifer: Hey, [Cathy 00:01:04]. Hey Sharon, hey Mimi! Hey Jim and [Robin 00:01:08], how’s everybody, hey Sharon, [Tracy 00:01:09], how’s everybody doing? So I’m trying to watch comments, because I’m supposed to be able to invite people to come on here. Guest request, allow your guest to join. Okay, there we go. Yay! Hey Angela! Mimi says, “Hi husband.”
Jennifer: So what’d y’all make for dinner this evening? Or what are you making for dinner? I already made dinner. I made, I don’t know if I should call it goulash or not. It turned out really well, so I’m going to have to remember the seasonings that I used so I can write up that recipe for you guys. I was using cauliflower, Chipotle beef broth.
Jennifer: Oh, Sharon, you’re fasting? Good for you. [Skyview 00:01:52]’s having trout. That’s awesome.
Jennifer: So mine was ground beef, cauliflower, Rotel, a bunch of seasonings. Chipotle beef bone broth, cheese, of course.
Jennifer: Oh, Angela’s having fake potato salad. Let’s see here. That’s awesome. Let’s see. Okay.
Jennifer: Special guest here. Anybody guess who the special guest is? I’m trying to, oh, can I click on Henry C.? Let me see.
Jennifer: He’s connecting. Yay! It’s Dr. Ken Berry. How’s it going?
Jennifer: Can you hear me okay?
Dr. Berry: Hello.
Jennifer: How are you?
Dr. Berry: Hey, we’re doing well. How’s it going?
Jennifer: Pretty good. Pretty good.
Dr. Berry: It’s good to see you.
Jennifer: It’s good to see you too!
Dr. Berry: Is my audio okay? Can you hear me?
Jennifer: Your audio is great. You know what I forgot to do? In going live there’s always a stress … I think it’s too late.
Dr. Berry: Maybe. You can try them and see.
Jennifer: I think, I don’t know. Will it work? Let’s see.
Dr. Berry: Maybe. Give it a try. Yeah. Can you hear me?
Jennifer: Is that better?
Dr. Berry: [crosstalk 00:03:29] Yeah, perfect.
Jennifer: Oh, I can hear you perfect now.
Dr. Berry: [crosstalk 00:03:32]
Jennifer: Okay, Nancy says, “What? Dr. Berry?”
Dr. Berry: Yeah, I’m really excited to be with you in this group. Neisha and I’ve been following this group for a while, and the delicious recipes, we’ve tried a few. You’re doing great work in here.
Jennifer: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, we’ve met at a couple of conferences and I’m always excited to talk to you. I love what you’re doing. I love the information that you share within the community. I just adore you, and Neisha too. Where is Neisha?
Dr. Berry: Thank you.
Jennifer: I want to say hi.
Dr. Berry: Neisha, she is actually on the couch with morning sickness in the afternoon, not feeling great. She’s 12, 13 weeks along with baby Berry right now, and just not doing well. She says hi, but I don’t think that she’s, no. She’s not ready for camera.
Jennifer: I don’t blame her. Well, just tell her Jennifer says hello.
Dr. Berry: Jennifer says hi.
Jennifer: Awesome. Well, I really wanted to just share you, your story, everything, with my viewers. You’ve never come on before, so I’m so excited that you’re here. I’m so excited to bring you on and tell people all about you, all about what you do. First of all, I’m super excited that your book, the Lies My Doctor Told Me is out for pre-order. How excited are you that that was picked up by a major publisher?
Dr. Berry: Really excited, because I felt compelled to write the book, and I actually approached a few publishing houses, what, a year and a half, two years ago. One of them said they would take it, but I would have to change the name to Medical Myths, and I said, “Yeah, I’m not going to do that,” because if your hairdresser tells you you should eat more whole grains, then that’s worth every penny you paid for that nutrition advice. She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She has no fiduciary relationship to you. All she has to do is cut your hair, that’s it. But if your doctor, or your dietician or your nutritionist or your endocrinologist tells you you should eat more whole grains, then they damned sure better know what they’re talking about. That’s their job. And when they give you misleading or erroneous nutrition or medical advice, that’s more than just a myth. That’s more than just a, “Oops, sorry, made a mistake.” That’s a big fat lie where I came from.
Dr. Berry: If a mechanic tells you you need a new motor for your car, and you really don’t need a new motor, is that a mistake? Not where I came from. That was a big fat lie, and so I said, “Yeah, nevermind. I’ll self-publish.” So I did self-publish, and it did pretty well as a self-published book, but now it’s been picked up by Victory Belt. It’s full color. It’s illustrated. It’s got four extra new chapters now, and as Pinocchio would say, it’s now a real book.
Jennifer: Well, I love it. First of all, I love how you go and stick to your roots, stick to your beliefs, go against the grain, don’t allow them to push and make it what it’s supposed to be. I absolutely adore that about you. I do want to tell people that I just checked Amazon, and it’s 35% off the pre-order. So I know that, it is.
Dr. Berry: Ah.
Jennifer: Chris just posted a link to that book, so grab it if you haven’t. I see that lots of people have already said they pre-ordered it, so that’s good.
Dr. Berry: Excellent.
Jennifer: It would make a good gift, too, wouldn’t it?
Dr. Berry: It would make a great gift, wouldn’t it? Maybe for your doctors or your nutritionists.
Jennifer: Exactly. Or your endocrinologist.
Dr. Berry: Yes. Definitely for your endocrinologist. Yeah.
Jennifer: I’ve dealt so much with an endocrinologist, I think I’m going to get, I don’t even see them anymore. I’ve been doing Keto for two years. I’ve not seen my endocrinologist. I’ve not had a need to.
Dr. Berry: It’s really very concerning, and almost puzzling, because in residency training, the endocrinology residents, well, they’re internal medicine residents, and they may do an extra year of fellowship, or two years in endocrinology. That’s usually the cream of the crop of medical school. You don’t get an endocrinology fellowship if you’re dumb. It just doesn’t happen. So typically the brightest minds go into that, but something about the endocrinology fellowship just closes that mind, and they’re very knowledgeable about their tiny little part of medicine, and when it comes to some hormonal disorders and endocrinological disorders, they’re exactly who you need to see.
Dr. Berry: But when it comes to diabetes, it’s like they’re clueless. It’s like they’re learned idiots when it comes to that. They know all the latest and greatest prescriptions, the injectables, the pills, all that stuff, but if you say the word, “Diet,” and definitely if you say the words, “Low Carb Diet,” they’re done. They, you are so far outside of their pasture, they don’t even know how to eat the grass there. It really blows me away, because when I was in residency, we looked up to the endocrinology fellows. They were smart people, no doubt about it. But when they get into practice it’s like they put their blinders on, and all they can see is what the drug reps told them about the latest drug.
Jennifer: Yeah. I remember I went to my endocrinologist and I was stuck in my weight loss journey, and I was telling them about the diet. They didn’t care about the diet. They prescribed me, I hate to say this. I think it was Phentermine.
Dr. Berry: Yeah, for weight loss.
Jennifer: Yeah. I took it for one day, and I felt like, I realized later when I couldn’t stop, that it was a drug, and I was like, “Oh my God, I just took a drug. Oh no.”
Dr. Berry: Yeah. It’s an amphetamine. Absolutely. It’s kind of a chemically modified amphetamine. And it does work short term if you need that, as a head start, I think it’s okay. But definitely if you were already talking about diets, they should’ve never brought up Phentermine.
Dr. Berry: Now, if you were like, “Hey, I’m going to eat my honey buns and that’s that. I ain’t going to be on no diet,” yeah, maybe Phentermine would’ve been appropriate for you. But if you came out of the block talking about your diet, they should’ve went with that, and not pulled out the prescription pad.
Jennifer: Yeah. I did, I told them how well I had done on keto, and how I had hit a block, and they were talking about how metabolically you need to push it and she was going through a new metabolic class, and how there’s metabolic resistance or something. I don’t even remember, but I just remember leaving with a drug, and I was thinking, “It doesn’t feel right to take a drug. Not when I’ve come this far.” Yeah.
Dr. Berry: Yeah, it’s ridiculous. So this very intelligent doctor, the endocrinologist you saw, basically gave you the same pill they give you at a weight loss drug mill. If you had went to a strip mall and just some hole in the wall doctor who all he did was, “Weight loss,” they would’ve given you the same exact thing. It just blows me away.
Jennifer: It’s crazy. Well, I took one, I think I took two of those pills, and I did not feel like myself. I feel like I couldn’t settle down, and I said, “No more. I cannot take them,” and I flushed them. I was like, “There is no drug that I want to do that makes,” I’m already pretty high strung. So I didn’t need anything else.
Dr. Berry: Yeah, and all the fish in the river were high that day for the next 24 hours.
Jennifer: Oh my god. It was bad. My husband’s like, “What is wrong with you?”
Dr. Berry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer: He tries to get me to sit down normally. He’s like, “No, no, no. I can’t handle you now.”
Jennifer: Hey, I wanted to ask you. I know you’re everywhere, people know a lot about you. You are an expert in the keto diet, low carb, you share so much information, but you know what? I want to get to know a little bit more about you, as a person. I hope that’s okay, and if I ask questions that are not okay, just say, “Ah, nope, nope. We’re not going to answer that one.”
Dr. Berry: Yeah, that’s okay. Okay.
Jennifer: I was just wondering, your history, what is the part where you decided that you were no longer going to do the standard American diet? What was the turning point for you?
Dr. Berry: So I started, I graduated in 2000, from a university medical school, and started my residency training and my practice, and I was, my nutrition training as a medical student consisted of a half-semester’s course of nutrition that was either one or two days a week. Then the other half of the semester was behavioral science, so you can see mental health and nutrition, those were the two things that got the shortest shirt of all. It was just like, “Oh, by the way, we have to do this to keep our accreditation, so we’re going to do this one day a week for half a semester.”
Dr. Berry: I can sum up the totality of my medical school nutrition training with three statements. Eat lots of whole grains, don’t eat any saturated fat, and jog. That literally sums up the nutrition education I got for the feeding of healthy humans.
Dr. Berry: Now, if you’d been in a rollover car accident and the car exploded and you had third degree burns over most of your body, and you were in the ICU or the burn unit, they also taught us how to calculate the fluid replacement that you would need, and to calculate your protein needs, because they’re much higher when you’re healing from something like that.
Dr. Berry: So what they really taught us was the nutrition of very, very sick people. They taught us that very well, and we used that in the ICU, and we used it in the burn unit, and we used it in the NICU. They taught us how, if a baby is 32 weeks, you have to take the surface area of that baby and calculate that, and that’s how you calculate the fluid rate and their nutrition, because if you’re having to feed a patient parenterally instead of them eating by mouth, you have to calculate every bit of that stuff, so that’s really 95% of what we learned in our nutrition class was how to give nutrition to very, very sick people through an IV.
Dr. Berry: We learned that very well, but when it came to just, oh, you know, Sarah Jane’s overweight, or Joe’s got type II diabetes, we didn’t learn anything about the nutrition that is vital for those people if they want to live a long and healthy life. We just didn’t learn that in med school.
Dr. Berry: So in my teenage years and 20s, I was very slender, very athletic. I couldn’t put on any muscle, but I was that guy that could literally eat a dozen doughnuts and drink a half gallon of skim milk, and just go about my day and not gain an ounce. I used to be like that in my teens and 20s. No more. Those days are long gone, okay?
Dr. Berry: But so about 35, I was right in the middle of growing my practice, I was super busy, I was working nights in the emergency department as well, to kind of supplement income and get more experience, and I started to gain weight, and I started to get pre diabetic. At my worst health wise, I was 297 pounds, and my A1C was 6.1ish, and all my inflammatory markers were terrible. I had dandruff, I had rosacea, I had terrible allergies all the time, I had severe heartburn every single day, and I just thought this was the life of a grownup who was very busy and didn’t have time to whatever, whatever, right?
Dr. Berry: I had no idea that the chocolate milk and powdered doughnuts that I would swig on the way to work every morning was behind all that.
Dr. Berry: So when I got to 297 and was pre diabetic, moving towards becoming a type II diabetic, it just did not taste good in my mouth. Because I was raised to be a plainspoken, common sense, one plus one equals two, even if you don’t like it, it’s still two, and also to lead by example.
Dr. Berry: My grandfather used to tell me the story of the preacher who the parishioners caught in the bar drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, with a lady of the night sitting on his knee, and they were all like, “What are you doing, preacher? What’s wrong with you? You’ve told us not to do all this stuff, and here you are!” And the preacher said, “You do as I say, not as I do.”
Dr. Berry: And that literally was the parable that I was raised on, so I couldn’t be that preacher. I couldn’t be that fat, miserable, sick doctor who would then come into the room and say, “Now, Jennifer Marie, you’re going to have to watch your diet, and you’re going to have to lose some weight,” while you were glancing down at my belly worried if that button was about to pop. I just couldn’t be that guy, I couldn’t do that. That didn’t sit well with me, I didn’t sleep good, I just felt like a fraud when I would go into the room with the patients and proceed to try to tell them how to be healthy, when I couldn’t even do it myself.
Dr. Berry: So I climbed up in the attic, I got all of my nutrition notes down from med school, and you know, you might imagine this big, thick stack of books and tomes. It was really this many notes and a paperback book about that thick. I got it all down, and went through it all, and I came up with the three things I just told you earlier. Eat lots of whole grains, don’t eat any saturated fat, and jog.
Dr. Berry: I said, “Well, okay. Fine.” So I started doing that, and I did it for the next two months, and I gained five more pounds.
Dr. Berry: Now, there’s this concept that doctors know, well, the way doctors think. We think all patients are noncompliant, right? So we think, “Oh, I told Jennifer Marie to stop laying on the couch eating Doritos. I told her to eat more whole grains and to stop the bacon and to go jogging. But I know she’s not doing that. She’s not listening to me.”
Dr. Berry: But there was a problem. The problem was, I was living with me. I knew I was doing it. I was following my own recommendations, and it was not working. So at that point, that was an epiphany to me. Dude, you don’t know what you’re talking about. In a nutshell, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. You need to figure out how to actually feed a human being who’s relatively healthy but suffering from metabolic disease, and obesity, and diabetes, and prediabetes, and fatty liver. You don’t have any idea what to tell that person, because what you’re telling them to do ain’t working for you. So how do you, how are you going to accuse them of being noncompliant when you know yourself you were doing it, and it didn’t work?
Dr. Berry: So it was back to the drawing board at that point, so I started reading way outside of my doctor box. I read books by Dr. Atkins, by Mark Sisson, the Primal Blueprint. I read the Paleo Diet by Loren Cordain. And those three books kind of were the wake up call, the beginning of me being where I’m at today, because everything those guys said was backwards. It was upside down and backwards from everything I’d ever been taught, right?
Dr. Berry: And I was kind of reading these books, and I was in the same shoes that your endocrinologist was in when you were talking about this low carb diet, I was like, “Yeah, but whatever. Yeah, but what? Really?” And I thought, “Okay. What I’ve been doing ain’t working. I’m going to try this for a month or two.” And I did, I started eating lots of saturated fat, I stopped all grains, I stopped all sugars, stopped all the industrial seed oils, and you could say I was eating ancestral paleo primal. That’s kind of what I was doing then.
Dr. Berry: Immediately started getting better. Immediately started to lose weight, the A1C started to come down, and it worked great for several months. I was continuing to read and learn, and watch YouTube videos and read books, and at some point, what I was doing, it kind of stalled out and it stopped working, and I was like, “Huh.”
Dr. Berry: So I had just heard about the low carb high fat thing. I’m like, I think I’m going to, and so the way I pictured it was, paleo is kind of this, and then you tighten up paleo, and it’s low carb high fat. So I did that, and that started working again. I started to lose more weight and my numbers got even better. After a few more months, I stalled out.
Dr. Berry: By that point, I had heard of the ketogenic way of eating, and I thought, “Well, that’s even a smaller section of paleo. I’m going to give that a try for a couple of months, see how that does.” Lo and behold, I started to lose weight again, and just kept losing weight. Losing back down towards my ideal body weight. My A1C was back to 5.7. My chronic knee stiffness and pain at 35, 36, was gone. I had it every day after a basketball injury in high school. My dandruff was better, my rosacea looked like it was gone. My heartburn was 80% better, and if somebody watching has never had severe heartburn, you don’t realize. You just think, “Oh, it’s some acid or something. I don’t know.” True heartburn, true GERD is ungodly painful. It hurts.
Jennifer: It’s, I’ve had it. It feels like almost a heart attack.
Dr. Berry: Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer: I felt like it was a heart attack.
Dr. Berry: That’s right. And I had probably done three EKGs on my own self over the years at the clinic, because I’m like, “Dude. There’s no way this severe of a pain is coming just from my esophagus.” So I would have the nurses hook me up, do an EKG. Looked great. So then I would take a Nexium, it would be gone. I’m like, “Yeah, it’s freaking reflux. I can’t believe it hurts this bad.” It was so bad that it affected my speech. I would have to swallow continuously. My voice would be very hoarse all the time.
Dr. Berry: So after a couple of years of keto, I kind of stalled out again, and then I had been hearing about the carnivore diet. So I consider that even a smaller subsection of the ketogenic way of eating. I thought, “I’ll try it for a month, and we’ll see what happens.” At the end of that month, I had zero heartburn.
Dr. Berry: And then it never, never happened to me my entire adult life. When the Nexium drug rep would come to the office and leave samples, I got those samples. The patients didn’t get those, I got them all. Because I took one or two a day. But after keto, every now and then I would pop a Tums or a half a Tums, but I never took Nexium again after keto. But after a month of carnivore, and I’m almost a year carnivore now, I never have heartburn anymore. It’s just gone. That is almost miraculous.
Jennifer: That’s amazing.
Dr. Berry: I can’t, if you’ve never had GERD, you just can’t understand, and I know I sound like the proverbial patient, you just don’t understand my pain, but I’m telling you, man. GERD sucks bad, and of all the things that have gotten better, I’m happy about all of them and thankful about all of them, but that’s the one that affected my life more than all the rest put together. And ultimately, the prediabetes and diabetes would’ve killed me. But the GERD made me feel like I was dying, and it was rough.
Jennifer: You know, I can really relate to that. I had such a bad gut that I had an internal bleed that put me in the hospital for six days. They did an upper, a lower, and they could never find it. They issued me the generic of Nexium, which was Pantoprazole?
Dr. Berry: Pantoprazole, yeah.
Jennifer: So that was the generic of the acid reducer, whatever, and luckily it stopped bleeding. I had to have blood put in, and they said, “We couldn’t find it. Thank god it stopped. You can go home.”
Dr. Berry: Yeah.
Jennifer: And now, today, and I had to take Pantoprazole, however you say it, I’ve had to take that every day for years, and ever since with this diet, I know what you’re talking about. You don’t get it, I don’t have to take the meds, it is amazing. It’s life-changing.
Dr. Berry: It’s really miraculous.
Jennifer: And isn’t it funny that I talk to somebody and I tell them the amazing story that just changing food, you don’t need pills, powders, potions, patches, any whatever gimmick somebody’s trying to sell you, you don’t need it, you just change the food, but it was even hard for me to understand that before.
Jennifer: What do you tell people now? How do you get that word across that, you know what? It is food. It is the food that’s doing it. You can change it with the food. Surprisingly you can change it rather quickly, too.
Dr. Berry: Yes. Very rapidly if you do it right. And so in the clinic now, after I had kind of transformed my own self, and I think figured out how to feed a human being, I started recommending the ketogenic way of eating to my most morbidly obese patients, people who were on the list to have gastric bypass surgery. And I said, “You know, you’re going to have this surgery anyway, you’ve tried every diet in the world, some of them 20 times. Why don’t you give this a month and see what happens?”
Dr. Berry: And I did that with maybe five or six patients who had a BMI of 45 or higher, and I thought, they got nothing to lose anyway, right? Because I was a little skittish about recommending it to everybody. I thought, “It worked for me, but I’m not everybody.”
Dr. Berry: And so all six of these patients, they’d come back in a month for their checkup, they had lost anywhere from 10 to 25 pounds in a month. Of course, they had a lot of weight to lose, but that’s, and they’re like, “Dude. This diet’s crazy. Because I eat as much as I want, and I’m eating bacon like some kind of bacon monster, but I’m still losing weight. How is this possible? How is this happening?” And I’m like, “Well, honestly, I’m not real sure yet, but I’m still looking into the science of this, but I just thought it might work.”
Dr. Berry: So they were all like, “Yeah, can I do this another month?” And I’m like, “Mm-hmm (affirmative). You sure can, you can do it for another month.” And so they, out of the six, five of those guys went on to reverse their morbid obesity, one just said, “Yeah, I don’t want to do this,” so they went ahead and had the surgery, but if anybody knows about medical research, five out of six, a medical intervention that reverses five out of six is amazing.
Dr. Berry: So then I started recommending for anybody with a BMI of 30 or higher, which is morbid, that’s the cutoff for morbid obesity, the medical definition. So I started recommending it to all those guys, and anybody who truly implemented the diet would come back for their checkup with that same story. “How is this working? I love this diet, can I do this for another month, or another three months?” And I’m like, “Yes, you can. I think so.”
Dr. Berry: Because early, when I first started recommending it, I would check people’s labs every month, because I didn’t know what this was going to do, so I was watching their electrolytes, I was watching their complete blood count, their complete metabolic panel, I was watching their liver function very carefully, and their kidney function very carefully, because back then, I still wasn’t really sure if eating a lot of protein was bad for the kidneys or not. Now I know for a fact it’s not. But back then, I wasn’t sure, because there was this myth floating around in the medical community that too much protein is really hard on the kidneys.
Dr. Berry: Turns out, it’s a complete and utter myth, there’s no truth behind it at all, but I didn’t know that then, so I was watching their kidney function like a hawk. I was checking their microalbumin, I was checking urinary protein, I was checking their BUN creatinine, their GFR, and if anything, their numbers were getting better, not worse.
Dr. Berry: Which was again blowing me away, because at that time I had no idea how that was happening. And so but the more, now I continue to read and learn and research, now I understand the mechanism behind it. But at that time, the ketogenic way of eating truly seemed like magic to me. I’m like, “Dude, you know this ain’t magic, it’s got to make sense, you just don’t understand yet how it makes sense,” which was absolutely true.
Dr. Berry: So as I continued to read, learn and research, and finally was like, “Oh, got it. Now it makes sense.” Because even though I was taught about the hormones leptin and ghrelin and glucagon in med school, most primary care doctors don’t really deal with those much. We deal with insulin, we might deal with testosterone and estrogen, but that’s about it. We don’t really get into deeper hormones than that, and so I knew about insulin, but I had forgotten about the leptin and the ghrelin and the glucagon. But then when I started reading, because keto, as people watching know, it just makes you want to know more.
Dr. Berry: You’re like, “Wait a minute, how’s this possible?” And even people who aren’t in medicine, they’re like, “I’ve got to watch this video. I’ve got to read this article. I’ve got to read this book. Because I want to know more about this.” It’s really, it really almost wakes up the intellectual side of you, and makes you want to understand what’s going on.
Jennifer: Yeah, for sure. So out of all the people that you’ve helped, because you’ve helped thousands, I know you have, do you have one very memorable case? Can you not give names, but, somebody you really helped?
Dr. Berry: Yeah, it was a guy. He was a friend of mine. He was a sweetheart of a guy, and he was so morbidly obese, his BMI was like 55. He was a preacher, and when he first came into my office, he was walking with two canes, and he was on the knee transplant list. He was going to have his knees replaced, because his knees hurt him so much, and you can just imagine most people would say, “Oh, it’s because of your weight. It’s putting all that extra pressure on your knee joints, and it’s just bone on bone. You’ve worn out your cartilage from your weight.”
Dr. Berry: Back then, that made sense to me. It was just a mechanical, it was wearing out. I didn’t even understand the glycation of what was going on in the cartilage. I didn’t understand the inflammation that was going on in the joint because of my friend’s diet. And so I told him about this. I said, “Dude, let’s give this a try. Give it three months. And then if your knees are no better in three months, you can go ahead and have your knees replaced, and I’ll take care of everything else, and you can do the knee replacement.
Dr. Berry: A month later, he came back, he had lost 20, 25 pounds, and he was walking with one cane. Came back the next month, he’d lost another 15, 20, and he was still walking with that one cane. The third month he came back, he’d lost another 15 or 20, and he didn’t have a cane.
Dr. Berry: And he said, “Dude, I called that surgeon. I canceled that. I’m not going to do that unless something changes.” At that point, it became very obvious to me that what we’re doing in the US, in most other countries that eat the standard diet, the standard Western diet, is we are poisoning our bodies. I think that’s the proper way to think about it. Because you can say, “Oh, you’re eating too many of this, too much that, whatever.” But really, if I gave you just a little bit of poison each day, you would have fatigue, you would have headaches, you would have migraines, you would have joint paint, you would, your liver would get inflamed and sick.
Dr. Berry: But I’m not giving you enough poison to kill you, just giving you enough poison to keep you sick. You might live for 20 years, but you’re going to be miserable the whole 20 years, and that paradigm, that way of thinking about this, that’s what really flipped the entire paradigm on its head. I was like, “We’re poisoning ourselves, and doctors are literally recommending that people poison themselves more.”
Jennifer: Donna says, I have to say this, Donna says, “Sugar is poison.” I said that all the time.
Dr. Berry: Yes, yes, yes.
Jennifer: And people look at us like we’re crazy, but it really is. It’s truly how I feel, and I’m tired of hiding that anymore.
Dr. Berry: Yeah, sugar is a slow poison. It won’t kill you today or tomorrow, but it will kill you and make you suffer miserably over the next 10 to 30 years. Any grain is the same exact way. Grains are full of sugar, every grain ultimately breaks down into glucose and fructose. I don’t care if it’s stone ground organically grown whole grain grown on Mount Vesuvius. It still breaks down into glucose and fructose.
Dr. Berry: And then all of the inflammation caused by the industrial seed oils, the canola, the soybean, the corn oil, the peanut oil, the safflower, all that stuff is poison. All you have to do to help a human get healthier is to just stop poisoning them. That’s, it is literally that simple. That’s, and so basically when we say, “Eat the ketogenic way,” we’re saying, “Eat the proper human diet, and leave the poisons off.” And miraculously when you do that, they get better. They feel better, they think clearer, their joints are better, their heartburn goes away, because all of those things were signs of slow poisoning.
Jennifer: Yeah. So that’s just amazing that you have a friend that was just at knee replacement, three months. Three months, no cane. And canceled the surgery, that is, I mean that just, that’s amazing.
Jennifer: So what was the point, there’s a journey that we do in keto. We experiment, we figure it out, we understand it, we stall, we get better, we really get better, we understand it more. At what point did you decide, “I’m going to write the book.”?
Dr. Berry: Yeah. So I’ve always kind of been the guy that if the magician was saying, “Watch this hand,” I was watching this hand. I’ve always had that mentality. So I remember I was on my obstetrics rotation as an intern, and we had been on call all night on our first call, delivering babies and doing c-sections, and the next morning, we would circumcise all the vaginal deliveries and they would go home later that day.
Dr. Berry: So the chief resident said, “Berry, don’t forget to write the vitamin D drops for the breastfeeding infants when they go home.” And I said, “Vitamin D drops, what are you talking about?” He said, “Well, humans don’t make vitamin D in their breast milk. So you have to give the babies vitamin D or they’ll get rickets.”
Dr. Berry: So I was post call, I hadn’t slept in 36 hours, but immediately, I was like, “Huh? What? You’re saying that for the last 250000 years women haven’t made vitamin D in their breast milk? How are we not extinct? I mean, every baby should’ve gotten rickets, broke its femur, and died.”
Dr. Berry: So that’s weird. But I went ahead, and thought, “He’s full of crap. There’s no way that’s right.” And I looked over at the attending physician, which was the MD who was, he was probably 50 years old and he was the leader of the team, and he was reading something, but he was nodding. Yep, that’s right. You’ve got to do that. I was like, “Okay, obviously I don’t know what I’m talking about. Obviously the common sense somehow doesn’t apply to this. But I filed that away. Like, “That doesn’t make any sense.” I’ve got to read more about that when I get the time.
Dr. Berry: So when I got time, I did read about it. Lo and behold I found out that there was a doctor in the Carolinas who had done a research study and she found that when you give a woman 6400 International Units of Vitamin D3 a day, which is about the same you would get if you were running around in a loincloth playing out in the jungle all day, guess what women make in their breast milk! Vitamin D. That’s why we didn’t all get rickets, die, and become extinct. But my chief resident, who was a very smart guy, had no idea that diet could fix that. The attending physician, who was a genius, had no idea. They were both just like, “Yeah. You have to give us vitamin D drops, because humans are somehow, we’re broken and we’re inferior and we just don’t make vitamin D.”
Dr. Berry: That was the first, and I’m like, “I’ve got to write about this. This is ridiculous. How am I the only guy in the world that knows, me and this researcher in North Carolina, how are we the only two people on the planet who know this? And it’s not that I’m a smart guy, I just don’t give up. And so then, the next one was if someone has diverticulosis, the standard advice to them is to avoid all nuts and seeds, because they’ll get trapped in the little diverticuli and lead to diverticulitis.
Jennifer: My husband got that advice, yeah.
Dr. Berry: Yeah. And I get the mechanical thinking, like tiny little particle gets stuck in there, and block it up, I get that. But at the same time, I’m like, “You know human beings, we’ve eaten nuts and seeds for a long time. How is it now that this natural ancestrally appropriate food leads to medical problems? How does that make any sense?”
Dr. Berry: So I started researching that. Turns out that’s also complete bunk. Even though most gastroenterologists who are gut specialists will tell the patients who have diverticulitis, you’ve got to avoid strawberries, blueberries, all the nuts and seeds, because they will give you diverticulitis. Turns out that’s complete and utterly untrue. It’s one of those medical myths like protein’ll hurt your kidneys. There’s no truth in that at all, but yet even very learned stomach and intestine specialists will repeat this ignorant advice, which I called a lie, because if you’re a gastroenterologist and you don’t know that, what is it that you do know, my friend? Because you should know that. You should really know that.
Dr. Berry: So that was the second one, and at that point, I thought, “You know, if these two things are going on, what else is out there that doctors are just telling their patients pure ignorance and harming their health, and nobody knows?” Nobody knows and so those two things were kind of like, I’m going to see how many of these I can find, and I don’t know, maybe write a book.
Dr. Berry: I’d always wanted to write a book, but you know that’s that dream, like, “Yeah, okay. I’ll write a book one day.” But then as I kept, and after I got up to about 10 or 12 of these lies I had found, I’m like, “Yeah. I need to write a book about this, because people need to know this.” So that’s where Lies My Doctor Told Me came from. Women don’t make vitamin D in their breast milk. You have to give the babies vitamin D drops. That’s what started it all.
Jennifer: That’s awesome. I could just imagine you doing all of this research, like does Neisha have to tell you, “No, don’t research another thing! Just wait!”
Dr. Berry: She’s like, “I’ve heard enough. That’s it. Enough for today. Hit the pause button. I don’t want to hear it.”
Jennifer: So how does your, does your whole family do keto, or are you still doing carnivore? How has this all affected your whole family?
Dr. Berry: Yeah, after the, I was doing great on carnivore. After the clinic fire, it hit me a lot harder than I expected it would. Things happen in life. We know this. Turns out that clinic was like one of my children, and it really broke my heart when that happened, and it took all the wind out of my sails. So I kind of slid back into keto, and so I’m currently back on keto, but it was just because I was so, I don’t know, distracted, emotionally distraught, sad, I don’t know what emotion to put on it, but I’m still eating keto. So basically, right now, I’m cheating with broccoli.
Dr. Berry: But I’m feeling better every day. I’ve started putting out videos again and I think before long I’m going to get back on carnivore. I’d also, I started working out, because I turned 50 in December, and so I thought, “I hear all the time, you’ve got to have carbs to put on muscle, you’ve got to have carbs.” And then also, if you’re old, you can’t put on muscle. Here I am, an old guy who eats no carbs, let’s see what I can do if I buy a home gym and start lifting some weights.
Dr. Berry: So I was making some pretty decent progress, but I got sidetracked by this disaster. But I’m thinking probably I’m going to get started back in the gym in a week or two, and start posting those progress pictures again on my Facebook page.
Jennifer: Do you incorporate intermittent fasting into your routine?
Dr. Berry: Yeah. I don’t really do any extended fasting, but what I’ll do is typically when I’m eating fatty meat, I just eat one big meal a day, so I’m fasting for 22, 23 hours every single day, and then I eat as much fatty meat as I can hold, basically. I eat til I’m stuffed, and then I’m not hungry. Then I’ll sip on coffee with a little butter and a pinch of salt through the day, and that’s it.
Dr. Berry: So when I was carnivore, I was eating one big, fatty meat meal a day, and loved it. I didn’t get bored, I wasn’t like, “Oh, man. More rib eye?” Never did I say that. When it came time to eat, I was like, “Where’s the meat?” So I anticipate getting back on carnivore before long. But the beautiful thing is that I regressed to keto, I haven’t gained a pound.
Jennifer: Nice. Really?
Dr. Berry: Yeah. So I got on the scale this morning, I’m like, “Hm. Interesting. Very nice.” So obviously keto is not bad, and I don’t ever say it is. If people want to try carnivore, I think it’s an excellent experiment. Even if you don’t like it, at least you’ve tried it. But keto, man. Keto is the proper human diet. There is no doubt.
Jennifer: Yeah. I go strict carnivore when I get a stall, and I’m ready to jump start it. Because I know that there’s something in my keto journey that my is not liking it, whether it be a sugar substitute, too much of something, and I don’t really track anymore. I feel like I’m an expert on the food, so that’s not the problem. I think especially for me, I’m older, so I need to watch the times that I eat, and really listen to my body. So some days I’ll eat 900 calories, and some days I’ll eat 2000, but that doesn’t matter. It matters that I stop eating early, and that’s, if I eat too late, the scale will always show that the next day or the day after. So that’s kind of crazy.
Dr. Berry: Gotcha.
Jennifer: Yeah. So hey, speaking of which, you brought up the fire. I’m so sorry to hear about the fire. I cannot even imagine. But I do want to tell people really quick if you don’t mind, there is a page called HelpDrBarry.com, help, H-E-L-P-D-R-B-E-R-R-Y.com. If you feel led to help in any way, go to that page. You will see how you can support him, and it’s really important to me to bring him on here to support you in any way possible because I love the message that you’re providing out there. I love the knowledge that you’re spreading. Anybody who can do this in this world, we don’t have enough voices for low carb and keto and sugar is poison and I’m such a firm believer that we need to get this message out there, and I personally hope you rebuild. I would love it if you came to Texas. I think Neisha has family in Texas. I might have to talk-
Dr. Berry: She does, yeah.
Jennifer: I might have to pull her aside at KetoCon and say, “Neisha, come to Texas!”
Dr. Berry: Yeah. Currently we have full intentions to rebuild. Right now we’re waiting on the insurance process.
Jennifer: Oh good.
Dr. Berry: Which you may know takes months and months, and it is so tedious and so time consuming, and so when the clinic stopped, that was a huge hit to our income, so we’re trying to get by it as best we can, and my friend Jimmy Moore actually put up the HelpDrBerry page, and he’s a sweetheart. We love him, and thank him so much for doing that. It’s not in my nature to ask for help. That’s not how I was built, and so it’s been very hard for me to thank people and to not be like, “No, that’s too much. Take that back.” Because I’m not, I don’t do that. I was raised, you starve before you ask for charity. And so, but I can’t tell you how thankful we are, and how grateful and how appreciative.
Dr. Berry: I never realized that people cared like they do, and that, I guess I really didn’t realize how many people we had helped, maybe. But I’m so thankful. So thankful for everybody for reaching out and even people, I’ve had people say, “Look, I can’t afford to be a patron or to buy the book or whatever, but I just put, when I go to work, I put your YouTube channel on and I play all the videos for my cat while I’m at work. So all the ads play and the videos play,” and I’m like, “That’s frickin’ genius. That’s brilliant, because it doesn’t cost them a penny, yet it’s actually helping quite a bit.” Then other people share, it’s like, “I can’t buy your book, but I’m going to share a link to it on my page.” Beautiful, thank you so much. We, I appreciate all that stuff more than I could really ever say.
Jennifer: Well, it’s true. It’s definitely showing how people love you, and it’s definitely showing, karma comes back, man.
Dr. Berry: Yeah. I guess so.
Jennifer: You’ve helped so many people, so it’s an amazing thing. It’s not a charity. It’s, we want to support you. We’re here. That’s exactly why I invited you on the channel. I wanted people to get to know you. I wanted people to know how wonderful of a person you are. You, your family, Neisha, how many people you’ve helped. I really wanted to talk about your book, because that’s a really big deal. Again, if you guys order the book, it will help you. It will definitely help you. It’s eye opening, it’s on sale.
Jennifer: I am going to see you at KetoCon, right?
Dr. Berry: Yeah. We’ll be at KetoCon. We’re also going to be at KetoFest. We’re going to an event in Salt Lake City, a keto event. We’re going to Low Carb Seattle, and I may be being talked into going to a keto event in the Dominican Republic. I’m not sure if I’m going to be able to make that or not.
Neisha: [inaudible 00:44:32]
Jennifer: What’d she say?
Dr. Berry: Neisha said she’s not going.
Dr. Berry: She said, she’s not going, and I’m not going either. Because that’s going to be close to baby time.
Jennifer: Oh, yeah. I don’t blame her there. I don’t blame her there.
Jennifer: Well, what would you say, let’s see. We’re coming up on 45 minutes here. I would like to know, what would you say, I was struggling today with talking to a friend who has progressive MS, and when you’re trying to talk to somebody about changing their diet, and you know that it can help them, what is your best advice for telling somebody, not just my friend who has MS, but just anybody who maybe doesn’t have the belief or the will. What do you tell people? What’s your best advice for people who are just thinking that maybe they could try something new?
Dr. Berry: Yeah. So what I really try to do, I always try to keep it as simple as possible, because if you start making it complicated, two things happen.
Dr. Berry: First of all, people start to give up. And secondly, you also create a market for products, any time you make a diet complicated, you start having guidebooks and meters and testers, and all this. And then products, oh, here’s some keto bars and keto shakes, and all this stuff. So I find if you keep it simple, and you talk about it appropriately, it helps people understand and so instead of saying, “Oh, all things in moderation,” or, “Cut back on,” I say things like, “What if sugar is really a slow poison? What if sugar and grains are the reason that your knees hurt so bad? What if the industrial seed oils are what’s causing your chronic heartburn? What about that? What if the reason you’re having these severe psoriasis flareups or rosacea or eczema or dandruff flareups is because of your diet? There’s something in your diet that’s poisoning you. What about that?”
Dr. Berry: Most people are like, it almost pulls up that conspiracy, like, “What do you mean, poisoning me? What are you talking about?” Then I say, “Why don’t you try one month of doing these three things. Eliminate all sugars of any kind. Even honey, even agave nectar. Eliminate all grains. Oats, rice, corn, wheat, amaranth, quinoa, all of them, and eliminate all industrial seed oils, especially the margarine, and the Country Crock, I Can’t Believe It’s Not Butter, canola, all those oils. Try that for one month, and at the end of that month, see how your knees feel. See how your heartburn is. See how your psoriasis or eczema is,” and that’s doable. They’re like, “I can do that.”
Dr. Berry: And they’re like, “Well, what can I eat.” I say, “You can eat all the meat you can hold, all the eggs you can hold, all the butter you can hold, and all the leafy green vegetables you can hold. Eat all that stuff. You can eat as much as you want, you can eat as many times a day as you want.” They’re like, “Really?”
Dr. Berry: “Yeah.”
Dr. Berry: “Okay, I’ll try it. I’m going to do it.”
Dr. Berry: And so they’ve got three simple things to avoid, they can eat as much as they want of the approved foods, and I’ve got a little 20-page handout like a guidebook that you can take to the store and shop from that. That makes it easy, it makes it doable, and it gives them the reason why. Oh, this might actually be causing my knee pain, not you’ll be healthier if you do this. That’s way too generic for most people. They’re like, “I don’t get that.”
Dr. Berry: But if somebody’s suffering from severe heartburn, and you say, “Hey, if you eat this, your heartburn will go away,” they’ll hear that. Right?
Jennifer: Oh yeah.
Dr. Berry: So I kind of try to tailor it to whatever they’re suffering from, number one, and number two, make it easy. And then number three, give them a 30 day trial. Let’s do it for a month and see what happens. Because in truth, that’s what I did with me. After a month, I was like, “Dude, I feel better.” I think they will, too. And then during that month, as they start to feel better, what are they going to be doing? They’re going to be learning. They’re going to be watching. They’re going to be reading. They’re going to be like, “What is this all about?” And by the end of that month, they’re ready to do a second month and then they’re also ready to start telling their neighbor, because they feel so much better.
Jennifer: Now, the burning question is, have you ever found keto or low carb to be bad for anyone?
Dr. Berry: No. That’s a great, and I saw somebody earlier said, “Can you do keto with type II diabetes?” Yes, you can. You should. If you have type II diabetes, you need keto. If you have low thyroids, you need keto. If you’re menopausal, you need keto. If you have fatty liver, you absolutely need keto. If you have some degree of kidney failure, you need keto. Not, can you do it, yes, hell yes you can do it, you need to do it. Okay? There is a very small subset of the population who can’t do keto. And they have inborn errors of fatty acid metabolism.
Dr. Berry: Now the way you’ll know you’re one of these people is that you were in the ICU after you were born, you were in the NICU, you saw a pediatric geneticist, you saw a pediatric endocrinologist, and so if you think back in your childhood, and you’re like, “Yeah, none of that stuff happened to me,” then you can do keto. The people who can’t do keto, they absolutely know they can’t do keto, because they have a problem with fatty metabolism, and they know that. They’ve known that since they were old enough to walk and talk, and so they know they can still eat lower carbs, but they can’t eat enough fat really to get into ketosis. They have to be carb burners for most of their life. But they could eat healthier options of carbs and still get rid of step one, two, and three, but they can never eat high enough fat to probably, and low enough carb, to get into ketosis. But they know very well who they are.
Dr. Berry: I was going to make a YouTube video about this, but literally, the video would’ve been for about 500 people in the entire United States. That’s how rare these conditions are. So I didn’t even make the video, because as I was doing the research, I discovered, they’re going to know exactly who they are. They don’t need me to tell them.
Jennifer: Yeah. My friend, somebody who’s weighing heavy on my heart this week, kind of said, “No, I shouldn’t do keto.” And I’m like, “Well, why?”
Jennifer: “Well, somebody said it wasn’t good for me.” And I’m like, “Progressive MS.” Oh my god.
Dr. Berry: Oh my god. Yeah. If you have any autoimmune condition, if you have MS, if you have Sjogren’s, if you have rheumatoid arthritis, if you have lupus, any of that stuff, you absolutely must eat the ketogenic way. You’re going to lower your inflammation and you’re going to calm down your immune system, and those are the two things that are driving your disease. Keto’s not going to cure your autoimmune disease, but it will make you have fewer flareups, and when you do have a flareup it’s going to be much less severe. Big deal for people with autoimmune disease.
Jennifer: Yeah. So there’s, people are asking, “What’s the name of the book, again?” It’s called Lies My Doctor Told Me, it releases April the 30th. It’s 35% off. If you scroll down, we put the link in there five or six times. Or you can go to HelpDrBerry.com. All the links and any way you can support him in his mission is there.
Jennifer: I also want to mention, if we have new people on the channel, I provide free weekly meal plans. You can put your email address, switchtoketo.com, that is my personal email address, I send them free every week, that’s just my way to help people do keto.
Dr. Berry: That’s awesome. That is awesome.
Jennifer: Yeah, because you’re the science behind it, you’re the doctor. I’m just a cook. I love cooking, and that’s my way to-
Dr. Berry: Hey. My granny told me, “Never make the cook mad.” That’s a rule. That’s a rule of life. Never make the cook mad, because you’ll regret it.
Jennifer: Yep. Well, my family is very happy. They weren’t on board keto the first four months I did it, and when they started seeing all the food that I was making, they’re like, “Wait, this is keto? I’ve been eating keto?” And they’re like, “I can do this.” My, back then she was 12, my 12 year old goes, “Mom, can I do keto?” This was a couple years ago. I was like, “Uh, I don’t know, I’ve got to research that. I’ve got to make sure there’s not going to be anything wrong.” She did wonderful. She has an amazing before and after photo in the group.
Dr. Berry: That is awesome.
Jennifer: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Is there anything you want to share with the keto friendly recipes page group?
Dr. Berry: I just want to thank you guys so much. Thank you, Jennifer, for giving me this opportunity, and thank you guys for sharing your story. I want to thank you in advance. If you haven’t shared your story, because you know, Jennifer, some stories are uncomfortable. You’re like, “I don’t want to tell people.”
Jennifer: They are.
Dr. Berry: “I don’t want to show people how bad my psoriasis used to be, or how morbidly obese I used to be, or what a severe eating disorder I used to have. I don’t want to talk about that.” You’ve probably seen me at KetoCon and other places before, challenge people. There are people who need to hear your story. They need to hear your story.
Dr. Berry: You could literally save people’s lives by getting over that little bit of embarrassment and telling people what keto’s done for you. That’s how we’re going to change the world with keto. It’s never going to come from the American Diabetes Association.
Dr. Berry: Those endocrinologists are never going to have a press conference on CNN and Fox News and go, “You know what? We were wrong.” That’s never going to happen. This is going to have to come from neighbor to neighbor, friend to friend, relative to relative. That’s how keto is going to save the world, and I need your help to do that.
Jennifer: Yeah. I agree 100%. I’ve been bold a little bit to kind of share my story, so I’m so glad-
Dr. Berry: It takes a minute, doesn’t it? It’s a little bit hard to put it out there. But I challenge everybody watching this. This video, this would be a great video for you to share on your Facebook page. Just doing that alone, somebody with an autoimmune condition could hear what I said a few minutes ago, literally you could change their life. Just from clicking the share button. That’s pretty darned powerful.
Jennifer: Hold on, we got a couple of questions. So somebody was asking again, what the name of the book is. It’s called Lies My Doctor Told Me, by Dr. Ken Berry. It’s on pre-order, you can grab it now. Grab it now, because it’s cheaper now than when it’s going to come out. And then somebody asked again, how do they get the recipes. Put your email address on this website. It’s called switchtoketo.com. It’s my own personal email, I will never spam you. I don’t charge for meal plans, I send them out every Friday for free. So put your email on there, confirm the email, and then you will get meal plans every week for free.
Dr. Berry: That’s awesome.
Jennifer: So Dr. Berry, I’m excited to see you. I know we’ve seen each other at a couple of the conferences. I know we’ll see each other again. Please tell Neisha I hope she feels better.
Dr. Berry: Yes we will.
Jennifer: And hello for me.
Dr. Berry: I will.
Jennifer: And our mutual friend, Ask Nurse Cindy, I’ve been chatting with her. She told me your San Antonio thing went amazingly well. I was so sad to miss it.
Dr. Berry: It was really great. You can be there next year.
Jennifer: Definitely. Oh, that’s for sure. For sure.
Dr. Berry: Excellent.
Jennifer: All right, well thanks for coming on, and you have a great evening. Bye, everybody.
Dr. Berry: Thank you so much. I’ll see you next time.
Jennifer: Thank you. Uh-huh (affirmative). Bye bye.
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